Comments on: “Church” is broken http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/ Rants, Dreams, Recollections... on the Walk Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:38:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Linda http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-58 Linda Thu, 07 Jun 2007 12:55:11 +0000 http://brettveenstra.com/?p=58#comment-58 <p>I think what Bob is trying to say is that even though to you, true worship can't take place without conviction, a lot of people every Sunday do just that. It may seem like a given to you, but without it being an obvious theme in a worship service, i think it can easily get overlooked.</p> <p>For a short time we went to another church and you always knew that was the main theme. How broken we were was made apparent every week, and by the end of the service we felt joy in the fact that He loves us still. What an amazing heart journey that really needs to happen at each and every worship service. Without that we are just 'choosing' our God. We need to be reminded we desparately need Him and that He's already choosen us.</p> <p>OH and i love the celebration idea being brought back to church. Where has that been?</p> I think what Bob is trying to say is that even though to you, true worship can’t take place without conviction, a lot of people every Sunday do just that. It may seem like a given to you, but without it being an obvious theme in a worship service, i think it can easily get overlooked.

For a short time we went to another church and you always knew that was the main theme. How broken we were was made apparent every week, and by the end of the service we felt joy in the fact that He loves us still. What an amazing heart journey that really needs to happen at each and every worship service. Without that we are just ‘choosing’ our God. We need to be reminded we desparately need Him and that He’s already choosen us.

OH and i love the celebration idea being brought back to church. Where has that been?

]]> By: Brett Veenstra http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-57 Brett Veenstra Tue, 05 Jun 2007 23:34:40 +0000 http://brettveenstra.com/?p=58#comment-57 <p>Huh... I'm a little confused what "indirect" means. Care to clarify?</p> <p>My main point of this post was that "church" tends to try to please everyone during 1 hour per week and it is waste of time at worst and un-fulfilling to the different groups who attend at best.</p> Huh… I’m a little confused what “indirect” means. Care to clarify?

My main point of this post was that “church” tends to try to please everyone during 1 hour per week and it is waste of time at worst and un-fulfilling to the different groups who attend at best.

]]> By: Bobby C http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-56 Bobby C Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:46:46 +0000 http://brettveenstra.com/?p=58#comment-56 <p>Ahhh, i see. I didn't realize you were talking about those three componoents as separate services...I just thought you were talking "functions of worship".</p> <p>But, I think you underestimate how many folks have found a way to get to Good News without any conviction. Personally, I don't see enough conviction in our services....and I think it would put things in a better perspective if more was done. I guess I'm talking about taking the 'indirect' conviction and making it more direct in approach.</p> Ahhh, i see. I didn’t realize you were talking about those three componoents as separate services…I just thought you were talking “functions of worship”.

But, I think you underestimate how many folks have found a way to get to Good News without any conviction. Personally, I don’t see enough conviction in our services….and I think it would put things in a better perspective if more was done. I guess I’m talking about taking the ‘indirect’ conviction and making it more direct in approach.

]]> By: Brett Veenstra http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-55 Brett Veenstra Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:30:35 +0000 http://brettveenstra.com/?p=58#comment-55 <p>Thanks for the post. I sketched this idea out in a few minutes, but my leaning would be your Conviction service would be sprinkled in both Edification and Salvation elements.</p> <p>For a "member" of that church, they would attend all three services, whereas a guest or better yet, non-believer would just attend Salvation.</p> <p>I just cannot imagine a message of Good News without someone realizing they are broken! (And I need to be reminded of this Grace continually it seems)</p> Thanks for the post. I sketched this idea out in a few minutes, but my leaning would be your Conviction service would be sprinkled in both Edification and Salvation elements.

For a “member” of that church, they would attend all three services, whereas a guest or better yet, non-believer would just attend Salvation.

I just cannot imagine a message of Good News without someone realizing they are broken! (And I need to be reminded of this Grace continually it seems)

]]> By: R. Dog http://brettveenstra.com/2007/05/27/church-is-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-54 R. Dog Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:20:12 +0000 http://brettveenstra.com/?p=58#comment-54 <p>First of all...holy crap! I agree with you!</p> <p>Second of all...you're missing one HUGE component of what a church should be. I agree with your list of Edification, Salvation, and Celebration...but you're missing <strong>Conviction</strong> <em>(or something along these lines)</em> Church should be a place that people are convicted of our broken state each time we enter. To me, this is the only way to move onto edification, salvation and celebration.</p> <p>Finally, your last list of ideas on worship services is what alot of churches who are outreach oriented currently do. Churches like Willow and Nothridge (although I don't advocate everything they do) do really well at this...their weekend services are totally seeker oriented. Their "believer" services are Wednesday night, and are un-apolgetic for being totally believer focused.</p> <p>Good post...</p> First of all…holy crap! I agree with you!

Second of all…you’re missing one HUGE component of what a church should be. I agree with your list of Edification, Salvation, and Celebration…but you’re missing Conviction (or something along these lines) Church should be a place that people are convicted of our broken state each time we enter. To me, this is the only way to move onto edification, salvation and celebration.

Finally, your last list of ideas on worship services is what alot of churches who are outreach oriented currently do. Churches like Willow and Nothridge (although I don’t advocate everything they do) do really well at this…their weekend services are totally seeker oriented. Their “believer” services are Wednesday night, and are un-apolgetic for being totally believer focused.

Good post…

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